Post by sachertorte on Dec 10, 2009 13:02:21 GMT -5
I think it is far easier to overpower scum because of coordination possibilities. That alone is a very strong scum power. Town can't coordinate nearly as well... ever. Even if Town gets their act together, any coordination is public knowledge which mitigates its effectiveness.
I think I've been fair in assessing Town v. Scum in the past. I know I've had overpowered roles and sides in the past and I've stated as such at the time, but I get your point. And I think Pleonast is correct in that of his games, Town has won a statistically high number of times.
I am trying to run some scenarios that result in a Scum win. Some of what will happen depends on Bullseye. If he takes out a confirmable Town role (say he takes out Iron Man Night One, which is possible if he wants to be Town and doesn't want to risk bombing a Doctor or Cop), that will be a big boon to the Scum.
Which would also be remarkably stupid. If you want to win with the town, taking out confirmed Town is not a very good play. I would anticipate taking out probable town as far more likely.
Two major factors mitigate the confirmed town threat. First and foremost is recruitment. Second is the lack of Masons. Really, the only role that is a big threat to scum from a confirmed Town aspect is the Investigator. I reject the notion that Venom is a confirmed Town threat. Who are the others? I guess Iron Man, but he is not hidden. He is a masonhood of one that claims on Day One. Better than nothing, but not all that powerful. He does give cover to the other powerroles from scum NK, which is not insignficant.
That is very true. And problematic should it arise, but to provide the counter argument: Penance needs 4 votes a per protection. That is not insignificant - especially near endgame. When there are 7 players remaining, putting 4 on penance lynches him 100%. Heck, with M-1 4 votes on Penance lynches him with 9 players which is about halfway through the population. It's a problem, but not one that is as gamebreaking as two unkillable townies were in Heroes.
Also scum would get a 2-fer once either dies.
This is true. But scum also have coordination of powers. Roleblocking and killing the same target mitigates this issue.
Generally, has the doctor ever played a significant role in any mafia game? I can't recall any situation where the Doc posed a threat to scum. I can accept that the Doc is a pain in the neck, but not in a debilitating way. 4 Docs might be too much though. I can see removing the Venom and/or Spiderman Protect.
1. Remove Venom's protective ability AND Spider Man's protective ability (which I've been wanting to get rid of since we started).
2. Make She-Hulk a Bodyguard (takes the kill in place of someone else).
3. Change M-1 back to M.
4. Make Cable a hybrid Watcher/Investigator.
5. Allow recruited Scum to Night kill, but only if they are the last Scum remaining.
Fine
I think I've been fair in assessing Town v. Scum in the past. I know I've had overpowered roles and sides in the past and I've stated as such at the time, but I get your point. And I think Pleonast is correct in that of his games, Town has won a statistically high number of times.
Which would also be remarkably stupid. If you want to win with the town, taking out confirmed Town is not a very good play. I would anticipate taking out probable town as far more likely.
Two major factors mitigate the confirmed town threat. First and foremost is recruitment. Second is the lack of Masons. Really, the only role that is a big threat to scum from a confirmed Town aspect is the Investigator. I reject the notion that Venom is a confirmed Town threat. Who are the others? I guess Iron Man, but he is not hidden. He is a masonhood of one that claims on Day One. Better than nothing, but not all that powerful. He does give cover to the other powerroles from scum NK, which is not insignficant.
I do have one possible suggestion if we're afraid things are leaning Scumward, which is to remove the protection shared by the two players who become Venom. Under certain circumstances, this could be HUGELY problematic. If Venom binds with Penance, you have a two-man Masonry that cannot die as long as Penance gets four votes a Day.
That is very true. And problematic should it arise, but to provide the counter argument: Penance needs 4 votes a per protection. That is not insignificant - especially near endgame. When there are 7 players remaining, putting 4 on penance lynches him 100%. Heck, with M-1 4 votes on Penance lynches him with 9 players which is about halfway through the population. It's a problem, but not one that is as gamebreaking as two unkillable townies were in Heroes.
Also scum would get a 2-fer once either dies.
I think the biggest risk to the Scum is that the Town will block/avoid multiple kills. The Scum need to keep getting in their Night kill on a regular basis in order to win this game. Right now, Penance, Venom, Spider Man, and Goblin all have ways to avert kills one way or another.
This is true. But scum also have coordination of powers. Roleblocking and killing the same target mitigates this issue.
Generally, has the doctor ever played a significant role in any mafia game? I can't recall any situation where the Doc posed a threat to scum. I can accept that the Doc is a pain in the neck, but not in a debilitating way. 4 Docs might be too much though. I can see removing the Venom and/or Spiderman Protect.
1. Remove Venom's protective ability AND Spider Man's protective ability (which I've been wanting to get rid of since we started).
2. Make She-Hulk a Bodyguard (takes the kill in place of someone else).
3. Change M-1 back to M.
4. Make Cable a hybrid Watcher/Investigator.
5. Allow recruited Scum to Night kill, but only if they are the last Scum remaining.
Fine